Demoralizing opponents with Intimidate skill = fear effect? Mind-affecting effect?

This debate came up in my group yesterday when my intimidate-happy barbarian decided to fight a paladin of Imoedae. Apparently this particular paladin was immune to any and all fear effects, and therefore he could not be affected by any status effect that suggests he was afraid. My argument was that although the demoralize effect creates the shaken condition, nowhere in the description of the skill does it say "this is a fear effect" like fear spells would. Furthermore, the demoralize ability has no magical component to it, so saying it's a "mind-affecting ability" would be misrepresenting the ability. A magical or divine defense against magics that instil fear would doubtfully also work against someone trying to scare you manually.

That's my take on the effect, anyway. Is there a clear answer to this?

blackbloodtroll

Oct 21, 2012, 10:34 pm

It is a morale effect.

At 3rd level, a paladin is immune to fear (magical or otherwise).

Fear

Spells, magic items, and certain monsters can affect characters with fear. In most cases, the character makes a Will saving throw to resist this effect, and a failed roll means that the character is shaken, frightened, or panicked.

Shaken: Characters who are shaken take a –2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.

Frightened: .

Panicked.

.

Using demoralize on the same creature only extends the duration; it does not create a stronger fear condition.

I take the above to mean that using intimidate to demoralize actually is a fear effect. Of course, it could certainly have been written more clearly.

There is also circumstantial evidence pointing in the opposite direction, since the 3.5 version of intimidate specifically stated it didn't work on characters who were immune to fear, while the Pathfinder rules removed that sentence:

A character immune to fear can’t be intimidated, nor can nonintelligent creatures.

Of course, the same sentence can also be taken as circumstantial evidence suggesting what the intent of intimidate is.

At 3rd level, a paladin is immune to fear (magical or otherwise).

Fear

Spells, magic items, and certain monsters can affect characters with fear. In most cases, the character makes a Will saving throw to resist this effect, and a failed roll means that the character is shaken, frightened, or panicked.

Shaken: Characters who are shaken take a –2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.

Frightened: .

Panicked.

.

you don;t get a roll to save vs a demoralize check. That leads me to believe a morale effect is different than a fear effect. Also, an intimidate check cannot be used to frighten enemies.

blackbloodtroll

Oct 21, 2012, 11:33 pm

Demoralize is a Morale effect.

Immunity to Morale effects is what protects you from Demoralize.

Also, an intimidate check cannot be used to frighten enemies.

The first sentence of the Intimidate skill is: "You can use this skill to frighten an opponent or to get them to act in a way that benefits you."

Here, of course, frighten is used in the normal English sense of the word as opposed to describing the "frightened" condition.

Using demoralize on the same creature only extends the duration; it does not create a stronger fear condition.

I take the above to mean that using intimidate to demoralize actually is a fear effect. Of course, it could certainly have been written more clearly.

There is also circumstantial evidence pointing in the opposite direction, since the 3.5 version of intimidate specifically stated it didn't work on characters who were immune to fear, while the Pathfinder rules removed that sentence:

A character immune to fear can’t be intimidated, nor can nonintelligent creatures.

Of course, the same sentence can also be taken as circumstantial evidence suggesting what the intent of intimidate is.

Yes, that's what made me question the wording. I used to play 3.5 and noticed that rule was conspicuously absent from Pathfinder's rules. I don't see any reason they would omit that part of the intimidate check unless it meant they wanted that limitation gone.

Diego Rossi

Oct 21, 2012, 11:39 pm

At 3rd level, a paladin is immune to fear (magical or otherwise).

Fear

Spells, magic items, and certain monsters can affect characters with fear. In most cases, the character makes a Will saving throw to resist this effect, and a failed roll means that the character is shaken, frightened, or panicked.

Shaken: Characters who are shaken take a –2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.

Frightened: .

Panicked.

.

you don;t get a roll to save vs a demoralize check. That leads me to believe a morale effect is different than a fear effect. Also, an intimidate check cannot be used to frighten enemies.

It say: "In most cases, the character makes a Will saving throw", not "the character ST against fear effects is always successful".

A paladin is immune against all form of fear, both from a giant using intimidate on him or a spellcaster casting cause fear.
I get that you want more power for your "intimidate happy barbarian" but the paladin immunity is all encompassing.

Demoralize is a Morale effect.

Immunity to Morale effects is what protects you from Demoralize.

Could you direct me to rules that say this please?

blackbloodtroll

Oct 21, 2012, 11:43 pm

Please note the "morale" in Demoralize.

I was going to ask BBT the same thing.

There's another piece of circumstantial evidence pointing towards intimidate being a fear effect:

The sentence "Using demoralize on the same creature only extends the duration; it does not create a stronger fear condition." wasn't originally a part of the skill. It was errata'd in, specifically to avoid people using intimidate multiple times to achieve the frightened condition.

That wouldn't have been possible unless intimidate used the rules for fear effects, so the errata was necessary to prevent it.

Please note the "morale" in Demoralize.

Yeah, but the word "frightened" also appears in the skill description.

I ask because unless I see rules (or an official ruling in this topic) that supports my side my barbarian will sadly be unable to ever scare paladins.

I was going to ask BBT the same thing.

There's another piece of circumstantial evidence pointing towards intimidate being a fear effect:

The sentence "Using demoralize on the same creature only extends the duration; it does not create a stronger fear condition." wasn't originally a part of the skill. It was errata'd in, specifically to avoid people using intimidate multiple times to achieve the frightened condition.

That wouldn't have been possible unless intimidate used the rules for fear effects, so the errata was necessary to prevent it.

A lot of abilities can give an opponent the flat-footed effect, but that doesn't mean every ability that does so is a feint maneuver.

blackbloodtroll

Oct 22, 2012, 12:05 am

Actually, I would find it very odd if it weren't a Morale effect.

No, but only fear effects work cumulatively to create stronger fear conditions. If intimidate hadn't been a fear effect, the errata wouldn't have been necessary to prevent the "stacking".

Actually, I would find it very odd if it weren't a Morale effect.

If it is a morale effect, then it's the only morale effect in the game that provides a negative effect rather than a positive effect.

Except for one, the Mace of Terror. This item states it provides a morale penalty, but also states affected creatures gain the panicked condition (which doesn't give a type to its penalty). I doubt it's intended to give a double penalty, so I'm more inclined to believe that this item is worded incorrectly.

blackbloodtroll

Oct 22, 2012, 12:21 am

There are other examples of Morale penalties.

I could find no other examples of morale penalties when I searched the PRD. Perhaps you can enlighten me.

blackbloodtroll

Oct 22, 2012, 12:36 am

The Thais from Second Darkness:Children of the Void, create Morale penalties with their Aura of Bravery ability.

Nice. Well, I clicked the FAQ button. Regardless of if it's a fear effect, a morale effect, or something else entirely, it should be clarified.

blackbloodtroll

Oct 22, 2012, 12:43 am

DarkLightHitomi

Oct 22, 2012, 12:50 am

Doesn't matter what they say I will rule it as mundane fear and thus the paladin gets immunity. Hopefully they will say they same so I doont have to start a list of houserules for every game.

blackbloodtroll

Oct 22, 2012, 12:56 am

Now, I could see Demoralize as both a fear and morale effect.

Please note the "morale" in Demoralize.

Yeah, but the word "frightened" also appears in the skill description.

I ask because unless I see rules (or an official ruling in this topic) that supports my side my barbarian will sadly be unable to ever scare paladins.

Actually, there is no "morale" in demoralise, only "moral". Maybe it's a moral effect ;)

In any case, Back Stabbath, I think you're screwed unless someone from Paizo clarifies in your favour.

PS I began reading this thread thinking you were being treated harshly, but given the (admittedly circumstantial) evidence, I'm firmly in the "No" camp now.

Please note the "morale" in Demoralize.

Yeah, but the word "frightened" also appears in the skill description.

I ask because unless I see rules (or an official ruling in this topic) that supports my side my barbarian will sadly be unable to ever scare paladins.

Actually, there is no "morale" in demoralise, only "moral". Maybe it's a moral effect ;)

In any case, Back Stabbath, I think you're screwed unless someone from Paizo clarifies in your favour.

PS I began reading this thread thinking you were being treated harshly, but given the (admittedly circumstantial) evidence, I'm firmly in the "No" camp now.

What's done has been done, mostly I ask now because it looks like a rule that really should be clarified if it hasn't been already, not because I'm trying to eek out a small gain in a past event.

And, really, how often does a (generally) good-aligned party fight paladins?

blackbloodtroll

Oct 22, 2012, 01:57 am

I could see a number of CG freedom fighters having to fight many Paladins.

I could see a number of CG freedom fighters having to fight many Paladins.

Absolutely. I'm pretty sure my game's group LG and the CG PCs would have battled last night if they weren't, you know. PCs.

And sorry Back Stabbath, wasn't suggesting you were trying to pull a swifty and just gain advantage. Just that I intuitively agreed with you, and then changed my mind after reading what rules-folks had to say. :)

Vrischika111

Oct 22, 2012, 02:27 am

Demoralize: You can use this skill to cause an opponent to become shaken

as mentioned above, shaken is defined under FEAR.

by the 2 above I'd say that a fear-immune creature is immune to demoralize as well.

also note that Fear is not defined as mind-affecting effect.

Undead are immune to . mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, phantasms, and patterns), .

so (intelligent) undead are not immune to demoralize .

But, due to one of those cute little peculiarities of the rules, Fear Attacks are all defined as mind-affecting fear effects. But not all fear effects are fear attacks.

Seraphimpunk

Oct 22, 2012, 01:29 pm

Demoralize isn't a morale penalty, as Shaken is not labeled as a morale penalty, just a -2 penalty. Shaken is however classified as a mind effecting fear effect.

Demoralize isn't a morale penalty, as Shaken is not labeled as a morale penalty, just a -2 penalty. Shaken is however classified as a mind effecting fear effect.

Not strictly true:

Shaken : A shaken character takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. Shaken is a less severe state of fear than frightened or panicked.

Fear

Spells, magic items, and certain monsters can affect characters with fear. In most cases, the character makes a Will saving throw to resist this effect, and a failed roll means that the character is shaken, frightened, or panicked.

Shaken : Characters who are shaken take a –2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.

Frightened : Characters who are frightened are shaken, and in addition they flee from the source of their fear as quickly as they can. They can choose the paths of their flight. Other than that stipulation, once they are out of sight (or hearing) of the source of their fear, they can act as they want. If the duration of their fear continues, however, characters can be forced to flee if the source of their fear presents itself again. Characters unable to flee can fight (though they are still shaken).

Panicked : Characters who are panicked are shaken, and they run away from the source of their fear as quickly as they can, dropping whatever they are holding. Other than running away from the source, their paths are random. They flee from all other dangers that confront them rather than facing those dangers. Once they are out of sight (or hearing) of any source of danger, they can act as they want. Panicked characters cower if they are prevented from fleeing.

Becoming Even More Fearful : Fear effects are cumulative. A shaken character who is made shaken again becomes frightened, and a shaken character who is made frightened becomes panicked instead. A frightened character who is made shaken or frightened becomes panicked instead.

Fear (Su or Sp) Fear attacks can have various effects.

Fear Aura (Su) The use of this ability is a free action. The aura can freeze an opponent (as in the case of a mummy's despair) or function like the fear spell. Other effects are possible. A fear aura is an area effect. The descriptive text gives the size and kind of the area.

Fear Cone (Sp) and Ray (Su) These effects usually work like the fear spell.

If a fear effect allows a saving throw, it is a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 fearsome creature's racial HD + creature's Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature's descriptive text). All fear attacks are mind-affecting fear effects.

Format : fear aura (30 ft., DC 17); Location : Aura.

Format : fear cone (50 ft., DC 19); Location : Special Attacks.

Fear attacks are all mind-affecting fear effects, but not all fear effects are fear attacks.